Fakty i mity o Kalwinie

[arturolczykowski]

No wlasnie, panstwo to panstwo, a Kosciol to Kosciol. Panstwo nie powinno karac za kwestie "koscielne" inaczej bedziemy mieli takie kwiatki jak wspolczesne procesy o bluznierstwa w Pakistanie, czy zabijanie anabaptystow, tylko dlatego, ze praktykowali chrzest doroslych oraz palenie na stosie odrzucajacych Trojce.

Mieszanie ST z NT i brak rozdzialu Kosciola od panstwa do tego wlasnie prowadzi.....

[arturolczykowski]

Polecam ksiazke poswiecona rozdzialowi kosciola i panstwa: "Anatomia Hybrydy" Verudina, dostepna tutaj:

Anatomia Hybrydy

[fantomik]

No wlasnie, panstwo to panstwo, a Kosciol to Kosciol. Panstwo nie powinno karac za kwestie "koscielne" inaczej bedziemy mieli takie kwiatki jak wspolczesne procesy o bluznierstwa w Pakistanie, czy zabijanie anabaptystow, tylko dlatego, ze praktykowali chrzest doroslych oraz palenie na stosie odrzucajacych Trojce.

Mieszanie ST z NT i brak rozdzialu Kosciola od panstwa do tego wlasnie prowadzi.....

To raczej nigdy nie było tylko dlatego, że praktykowali taki, a nie inny chrzest. Niemniej to właśnie Jan Kalwin pragnął rozdzielenia władzy w Genewie od Kościoła, niestety jego (możliwe, że dość ograniczone) próby były odrzucone przez rządzących miastem. Kolejny przykład na to jaką rzeczywistą "władzę" nad miastem posiadał i wychodzi na to, że jednak niezbyt wielką.

Pozdrawiam,
f. (moje dwa grosze)

[arturolczykowski]

Diet of Speyer (1529)
Diet of Speyer, 1529, the notorious Imperial Diet at which the first imperial law was passed against the Anabaptists threatening death to anyone who did not recognize infant baptism. Thereby the mandate of Charles V of 4 January 1528, acquired the consent of the estates, including the Protestants, who at the same diet protested against compulsion in religious matters. The delegates from the cities (Catholic and Protestant) declared in a petition presented on 8 April to the two estates of princes that they would give their consent to the article on Anabaptism and on 12 April the Protestant princes also expressed their willingness to agree with the majority in the matter of the Anabaptists. Prince Louis V, a Catholic of the Palatinate, suggested a lightening of the penalty to the effect that only those should be punished with capital punishment who would not desist from Anabaptism. In the session of all the estates of the diet of 17 April, a draft of a decision made by the committee, to be included in the mandate against the Anabaptists, was announced to the estates and received the consent of both princely chambers, whereas the cities were for the time being still debating it. The Protestant princes in addition, in their protestation of 19 April and again on 20 April, declared their express agreement with the measures to be adopted against the adherents of adult baptism. The imperial law against the Anabaptists was issued 23 April 1529.

The content of the mandate—printed in the Neue und vollständige Sammlung der Reichsabschiede (Frankfurt a.M., 1747) II, 284; in J. J. Schmaussens Corpora juris publici Academ. III (1755) No. XIX, 141-43; Krohn, 213; and Bossert's Quellen (TA Württemberg, 1930) 3*-5*—was about as follows (literally according to Ney, 216, who gives an excerpt): Although the common law forbids upon penalty of death to baptize again an already baptized person and the emperor at the beginning of 1528 has given a new warning against the transgressors of the prohibition, that sect is still increasing. Therefore the regulation is ordered again, that each and every rebaptizer and rebaptized person, man or woman, of an accountable age shall be brought from natural life to death with fire, sword, or the like according to the circumstances of the persons without previous inquisition of spiritual judges. Against the preachers and leaders of the sect as well as those who persisted in the same or fell back into it no mercy shall be exercised but the threatened penalty shall be ruthlessly performed. Those who confess their error, recant, and beg for mercy may be pardoned. Whoever does not have his children baptized shall be considered an Anabaptist. No pardoned person shall be permitted to emigrate, so that the authorities can see to it that he does not backslide. No prince shall receive the subjects of another who have escaped. This mandate shall in all points be most strictly performed by all in order to perform the duties and oaths to the emperor and empire and to avoid the serious displeasure and punishment of the emperor.

The edict of Speyer brought brutal punishment upon the Anabaptists such as was inflicted upon no other religious party of the Holy Roman Empire. The law was repeated at Speyer in 1544, and was finally renewed at the diet of Augsburg in 1551. As late as 1694 the court councillor of Jülich, von Heyden, justified his sudden expulsion of the Mennonites from Rheydt by the edict of Speyer.

[fantomik]

Diet of Speyer (1529)

Ale myślałem, że mówimy o typowo protestanckich krajach.

za Wikipedią:

The Diet of Speyer or the Diet of Spires (sometimes referred to as Speyer I) was a diet of the Holy Roman Empire [...] The diet's ambiguous edict resulted in a temporary suspension of the Edict of Worms and aided the expansion of Protestantism. These results were repudiated in the Diet of Speyer of 1529.

A Speyer z 1529 roku: [...] The Protestants felt that "Christ was again in the hands of Caiaphas and Pilate." The resultant recess of the Diet neutralized the recess of the preceding Diet of 1526; it virtually condemned (without, however, annulling) the innovations made; and it forbade, on pain of the imperial ban, any further reformation until the meeting of the council, which was now positively promised for the next year by the Emperor and the Pope. The Edict of Worms was therefore to be enforced after all, without waiting for a General Council. The Zwinglians and Anabaptists were excluded even from toleration. The latter were to be punished by death.

Czemu cytujesz mi edykty Rzymu? Oni prześladowali nie tylko anabaptystów i to z równie błahych powodów.

[arturolczykowski]

Diet of Speyer (1529)
Diet of Speyer, 1529, the notorious Imperial Diet at which the first imperial law was passed against the Anabaptists threatening death to anyone who did not recognize infant baptism. Thereby the mandate of Charles V of 4 January 1528, acquired the consent of the estates, including the Protestants, who at the same diet protested against compulsion in religious matters. The delegates from the cities (Catholic and Protestant) declared in a petition presented on 8 April to the two estates of princes that they would give their consent to the article on Anabaptism and on 12 April the Protestant princes also expressed their willingness to agree with the majority in the matter of the Anabaptists. Prince Louis V, a Catholic of the Palatinate, suggested a lightening of the penalty to the effect that only those should be punished with capital punishment who would not desist from Anabaptism. In the session of all the estates of the diet of 17 April, a draft of a decision made by the committee, to be included in the mandate against the Anabaptists, was announced to the estates and received the consent of both princely chambers, whereas the cities were for the time being still debating it. The Protestant princes in addition, in their protestation of 19 April and again on 20 April, declared their express agreement with the measures to be adopted against the adherents of adult baptism. The imperial law against the Anabaptists was issued 23 April 1529.

[fantomik]

Wygląda to raczej na polityczne "poświęcenie" anabaptystów (z których jednak wiemy, że większość była dość anty-rządowa, to nie była tylko kwestia tego pojedynczego elementu teologii) przez owych sześciu luterańskich księży w zamian za odwrócenie wyroku na protestantów. Nie to aby ich to usprawiedliwiało rzecz jasna.

Masz jakieś informacje ze źródłami w j. angielskim? Globalna encyklopedia anabaptystów nie do końca do mnie przemawia przyznam.

Pozdrawiam,
f. (moje dwa grosze)

[arturolczykowski]

Najwiecej znajdziesz chyba w History of the Christian Church, Volume VIII: Modern Christianity. The Swiss Reformation. by Philip Schaff. Mozna znalezc pdf w sieci.

Potwierdza on, ze najbardziej przesladowani byli anabaptyssci w krajach katolickich, gdzie wybito ich kilka tysiecy, ale wspomina tez, ze protestanci mieli tez w tym udzial choc niewielki. W krajach protestanckich preferowano wiezienie badz wygnanie.

[arturolczykowski]

fantomik:

Ewidentnie kłamliwy, po pierwsze Kalwin nie miał wpływu na warunki w jakim był więziony Servet, gdyż w tym czasie miał akurat najmniejszy wpływ na rządy Genewy w całym swoim życiu. Po drugie przebywał z Servetem w sumie co wieczór w celi z Pismem Świętym aż do wykonania wyroku. A po trzecie to Kalwin wnosił o zmianę formy wykonania wyroku na ścięcie mieczem (którą to prośbę rząd Genewy odrzucił). Niestety takich paszkwili znaleźć można więcej

Rozumiem, ze ma to byc obrona Kalwina? Poczytaj sobie wypowiedzi jego samego o sprawie Serweta:

Calvin never changed his views or regretted his conduct towards Servetus. Nine years after
his execution he justified it in self-defence against the reproaches of Baudouin (1562), saying:

"Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies? Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster."

History of Christian Church - P. Schaff

He wrote to Farel (Feb. 13, 1546): "Servetus lately wrote to me, and coupled with his letter a long volume of his delirious fancies, with the Thrasonic boast, that I should see something astonishing and unheard of. He offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety; for if he does come, and my authority be of any avail, I shall never suffer him to depart alive."


Jak wczesniej postanowil, tak tez uczynil. Swiadomie zabiegal o skazanie Serweta, wlacznie z dostarczeniem dowodow jego "bluznierstw"....

[arturolczykowski]

Over and out.

[Lash]

uff...... nie ma wojenki



Opinie o Kalwinie sa skrajnie różne
to bardzo ciekawe ...

[fantomik]

fantomik:

Ewidentnie kłamliwy, po pierwsze Kalwin nie miał wpływu na warunki w jakim był więziony Servet, gdyż w tym czasie miał akurat najmniejszy wpływ na rządy Genewy w całym swoim życiu. Po drugie przebywał z Servetem w sumie co wieczór w celi z Pismem Świętym aż do wykonania wyroku. A po trzecie to Kalwin wnosił o zmianę formy wykonania wyroku na ścięcie mieczem (którą to prośbę rząd Genewy odrzucił). Niestety takich paszkwili znaleźć można więcej

Rozumiem, ze ma to byc obrona Kalwina? Poczytaj sobie wypowiedzi jego samego o sprawie Serweta:

Calvin never changed his views or regretted his conduct towards Servetus. Nine years after
his execution he justified it in self-defence against the reproaches of Baudouin (1562), saying:

"Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies? Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster."

History of Christian Church - P. Schaff

He wrote to Farel (Feb. 13, 1546): "Servetus lately wrote to me, and coupled with his letter a long volume of his delirious fancies, with the Thrasonic boast, that I should see something astonishing and unheard of. He offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety; for if he does come, and my authority be of any avail, I shall never suffer him to depart alive."


Jak wczesniej postanowil, tak tez uczynil. Swiadomie zabiegal o skazanie Serweta, wlacznie z dostarczeniem dowodow jego "bluznierstw"....

No właśnie nie jest to aż takie jadne jednak. Widzisz to co podałem jednak nie pasuje do tego obrazu, który kreślisz. Co więcej, bīły to lata gdzie Kalwin posiadał największych przeciwników właśnie wśród władzy Genewy (jego "wpływ" na miasto był w tym czasie najmniejszy w całej historii) i był raczej "użyty" (zresztą podobnie jak sam Servetus) podczas tego całego procesu, a nie był bynajmniej jego "szarą eminencją". Co więcej, wyrok został ogłoszony, nie dlatego, że Jan Kawlin niczym Cesarz wskazał "kciukiem w dół" tylko gdy napłynęły odpowiedzi z innych protestanckich miast na ten temat po tym jak "Rzym" zaczął na sprawę "naciskać". Ja nie twierdzę bynajmniej, że Kalwin nie popierał wyroku (chociaż wnosił o zmianę jego formy) ani nic z tych rzeczy ale nie jest to taż taka prosta sprawa jak starasz się ukazać.

Dodatkowo Servetus ewidentnie wolał być sądzony w Genewie niż gdzieś indziej (co by było niezwykle dziwne, gdyby obraz Jana Kalwina, który wielu tutaj przedstawia był prawdziwy).

Alister McGrath: Although it was Calvin, acting as an individual, who arranged for Servetus’ accusation and arrest, it was the city council who—despite their intense hostility to Calvin—took over the case and prosecuted Servetus with vigour. (This caused some surprise to outside observers: Wolfgang Musculus wrote of his belief that Servetus evidently expected to benefit from the hostility of the city council towards Calvin.) It should be noted that Calvin’s role in these procedures was subsequently that of technical advisor or expert witness, rather than as prosecutor. On 21 August the Genevan authorities wrote to Vienne, asking for further information concerning their captive. In particular, they requested ‘duplicates of the evidence, information and arrest warrant’ against Servetus. The catholic authorities at Vienne immediately demanded the extradition of Servetus to face charges there. The city council then offered him a choice: he could either return to Vienne, or remain at Geneva and face the outcome of Genevan justice. It is significant that Servetus chose to remain at Geneva. Alister E. McGrath, A Life of John Calvin (Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, Inc., 2000), p. 119.

Transkrypt w ogóle całej rozprawy jak i opis kontekstu polityczno-społecznego tamtych czasów jest zawarty i opisany ponoć najlepiej w książce: http://www.amazon.com/Servetus-Calvin-I ... 430451882/ (niestety paskudnie droga pozycja).

A dla osób słuchający mp3 w drodze do/z pracy polecam serię Calvin I Never Knew (można znaleźć na forum, wklejałem) oraz http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?s ... ohn+calvin

edit: Dodam jeszcze, że miesiąc przed procesem Serveta Kalwin sam oczekiwał wygnania z Genewy. Dokładnie po jego odmowie udzielenia Eucharystii przedstawicielom najbardziej wpływowej partii politycznej w rządzie Genewy w tamtym czasie, gdzie wcześniej miał zapowiedziane, że ma to uczynić pod groźbą nawet i śmierci. Po tej odmowie nawet i wygłosił kazanie pożegnalne. To mniej więcej właśnie ukazuje jak wielki wpływ na rząd Genewy miał Kalwin w tamtym czasie, ogólnie proporcja "sił" była całkiem odwrotna niż się to zwykle imputuje.

Pozdrawiam,
f. (moje dwa grosze)

[arturolczykowski]

Alez ja nigdzie nie twierdzilem, ze kalwin byl "szara eminencja" Genewy w tym czasie i ze on kierowal procesem. Mowie tylko, ze skorzystal ze sposobnosci, ze Serwet byl w Genewie, dostarczyl dowodow i zeznawal przeciw niemu.

To oczywiscie wladze Genewy skazaly Serweta, ale Kalwin mial w tym swoj udzial, co zarzucalo mu wielu mu wspolczesnych i dlatego wlasnie napisal obrone o slusznosci karania heretykow.

Koncze na tym ten temat.